I usually start by asking about childhood. Please go ahead.

Well, I guess when it comes to childhood, I would define it as the period from the time I was born till maybe secondary school.

Singapore was transitioning from a more or less rural community to a much more urbanised space. So we also went through that transition.

When I was in primary and early secondary school, I visited my friends who lived in kampongs. But I wasn’t living in a kampong.

My family started out in a flat in Commonwealth Crescent.

I was a baby then, so I have no recollection of it at all.

And when I was probably one or two years old, we moved to a landed house, not far from here (Toh Tuck). It’s called Jurong Park and the house is still there today.

Jurong Park?

Yeah, so if you go along Jalan Jurong Kechil, you will see this road called Jalan Rajawali. You make a turn at Jalan Selanting and you will find our old house.

If you go there now, there’s still a single-storey house. The new owners have not done it up.

Still in the original condition?

I don’t know whether it’s in original condition, but it has not been built up into a two-storey house.

And then we had a few more moves because my dad, who was originally a police officer in the 50s to 60s, wanted to leave the government service.

When Singapore started the armed forces, he was seconded to be among the first batch of officers. He became a major in the army but after a while, he realised that he wanted to be his own boss.

He started to study law and in those days, you could do an external LLB (Bachelor of Laws) here but you have to go to London to do your law dining.

We needed money for that so we moved house a few times, and eventually, we decided to sell our house to fund his studies in the UK.

So we moved quite a few times when I was in my early primary school years, like primary one to primary four.

Where did you move to eventually?

We moved from the Jurong Kechil area to Seletar Hills.

Originally we had a house in Dedap Road. Then we sold that house and rented for a while.

I also remember living in a rented shophouse in Jalan Kelulut.

I think we went to live with my grandmother for a while when my dad was in the UK.

After he came back with his law degree, we started to build up our own resources again as a family.

We finally got another house in Mugliston Park, which is still in Seletar.

So it’s wrong when people assume that you are a Teochew girl from Hougang?

Wrong. But I studied in that area.

Are you Teochew, Peranakan?

My father’s Teochew, so I’m Teochew.

My mother’s Hakka, so not pure.

So, moving to Hougang was not due to the fact that you’re Teochew?

Yeah, coincidental, I would say.

Where was primary school?

I went to a convent school in Serangoon Gardens called CHIJ Our Lady of Good Counsel.

After that, I went to St. Joseph’s Convent which was at Hillside Drive, still in the Hougang area. (The school has since moved to Sengkang East Way)

So in that sense, I have some familiarity with some of the old landmarks and places where we used to hang out, such as Daily Book Store in Kovan. And waiting outside the bakery at Upper Serangoon Road to take bus 111 to town.

I used to go to the secondhand bookshop in that area.

Oh that was N.I.B (Nora Ini Bookstore) in Serangoon Gardens.

We used to call Serangoon Gardens Ang Sar Lee (红砂厘).

Yes. That’s correct.

Your dad, Lim Choon Mong, was a policeman, then seconded to the army; before becoming a lawyer. I heard he was a very colourful character. What else can you tell us about him?

He was a very dramatic guy.

He would say the darndest things in court.

One day my dad was arguing this drug case and there were two DPPs for the prosecution. He was for the defence.

He couldn’t remember the name of this woman DPP.

So he called her the ‘red-haired DPP’.

Apparently she was getting married or something like that. It was just so terrible.

Red-haired or angmoh?

Not angmoh, she had dyed her hair I think.

Maybe for her wedding. I don’t know.

What else did he do?

Because he was a tennis freak, he would get tickets to Wimbledon.

And he would tell the judges, “Your Honour, I cannot take any hearing dates between June and July because I’ll be in Wimbledon watching tennis.”

Everyone had to stand still while he went to watch tennis.

So we know quite a bit about your dad but not so much about your mom.

Mom was a nurse. She was born in Batu Gajah, in the Malaysian state of Perak.

Her name is Marie?

That’s right.

Shortly after she was born in 1938, the Japanese invaded.

Her family was quite poor at the time.

Her father died when she was very young, maybe about four years old. I think her mom had, at that time, maybe six other children.

According to my mom, her mother’s sister, who was single at the time and wanted a child, requested to informally adopt my mom. So my mom went to live with her auntie. And she was sent to boarding school from a young age in a convent.

Was she in Singapore by then?

No, still in Malaysia.

She was English-educated and even learned French.

It was a very strict Catholic kind of upbringing there.

She has no gender bias when it comes to things like opportunities for girls compared to boys. So I’ve never faced that problem with my parents.

They always treated us more or less the same. And we were expected to fulfil our potential.

Was it because she was educated or was she just enlightened?

I don’t know because my father also never had that kind of bias.

I think they just expected us to stand on our own two feet and make them proud.

How are you different from your mom?

Her Catholic faith is stronger and you can see it applied in all situations. When faced with any crisis or challenge, she would invoke the name of the Lord or pray to a particular patron saint to help resolve the situation. As for me, I have not committed sufficient time to my prayer life.

How old is mom now and does she live alone?

She is 87 this year. She lives with a helper. When my father passed away, she flatly refused my offer to move in with her.

Was your father born in Singapore?

He was born in Sumatra. So in that sense, I’m a first generation Singaporean in my family.

What brought him here?

I do not know the full circumstances.

My father, my grandmother, my aunt, lived in this village called Bagansiapiapi, which I understand from other people, was a fishing village.

It had a largely Chinese population.

I think maybe after the Japanese left Singapore, my grandmother felt that it was safe to move to Singapore.

He would have been a teenager?

He was born in 1937, so he would have been in primary school.

And your mom came here at what age?

Mom came here when she was in her late teens.

She decided that she wanted to be a nurse in Singapore. I understand that the nuns were recruiting in Malaysia for nurses to work at the Mount Alvernia Hospital in Singapore.

There was a Catholic kind of connection.

And she stayed a nurse until she retired?

Yes, that’s right.

How did your parents meet?

My father was a patient in the hospital. He went there apparently because he had hemorrhoids, piles. My mother was a nurse attending to him.

The rest is history.

Was your dad born a Catholic?

No, he converted when he married my mom. That was in 1963.

But your mom was born a Catholic?

Yes. Are you a Catholic? Because you seem to know quite a lot about it.

A bad one, a lousy one.

It’s okay, we don’t judge people.

Does religion play any role in your life?

I would say a large role in terms of my outlook in life.

The Catholic faith has always emphasised things like speaking up for the downtrodden and helping the poor. You’ll notice that Catholic missions are always geared towards that kind of outreach.

So when it comes to what I want to do in my life or my career choices, it always has to be in terms of contributing to society.

That was why in law school, I had a lot of problems.

I started to question myself. I didn’t want to be a very good lawyer or to make a lot of money.

It didn’t resonate with me at all. So I had to figure out what to do with my law knowledge.

I went through a lot of soul-searching at university.

At one time, I wanted to leave law school.

It’s not so convenient to go into the details, but in the end, I couldn’t carry it out.

So I had to focus myself in my third year to go for the law exams.

It was quite a difficult time. I ended up with average grades. So that was that.

You studied law because of your father?

No, no, it was my second choice. I went for the medicine interview but I was rejected.

In my year, the medical faculty had this quota of one-third women, because there was this thinking that when women have their families, they would fall out of the workforce, so spending on their costly medical studies was considered a waste of taxpayer money.

On top of that, they also found that too many people with good results were going into medicine, so there was a need to spread them out. My results were not perfect but there were others with poorer grades who got in.

I was possibly facing that double whammy.

Or maybe the interviewers were not impressed with me.

Tell me a little bit about your siblings.

I’m the eldest. I have a sister and a brother who is the youngest child. The age difference between us is about three and a half years each.

Sharon, my sister, has been living in New Zealand since 1988.

She went to university there, and got married.

My nephew is now 29. So I think it is probably unlikely that she would come back.

What about your brother?

My brother, Arthur, is in Singapore.

He has two kids. His daughter is about to enter university. His son is in secondary school.

Are there any more lawyers in the family?

No, no.

Which famous Sylvia were you named after?

I asked my mother this and she said she just likes the sound of the name.

And she felt that in those days, not many people had that name. So I was not named after anybody in particular.

What was it like being the eldest child?

Being the eldest child, there’s always this special relationship with your parents because you’re the first one.

And I do find that over the years, especially when I got older, that my parents would share a lot of their thoughts with me.

Because I didn’t have my own family until recently, while my siblings had theirs, I was actually closest to my parents.

I think we went through different periods of family life. And there’s a certain trust between me and my parents.

I would like to think they love all of us equally, but they have a different relationship with my siblings.

Because, you know, as the eldest child, there is that first few years, when you were the only child, and that’s quite special.

Did you have to play the big sister role much?

Quite often, yeah.

Listening to them and also, it was expected that as the eldest child, you would give way to your younger siblings in many things. I had no issue with that.

What kind of student were you?

I was quite a self-motivated student. I’ve always wanted to do well.

There was no need for my parents to worry about me because I was just going to do things on my own.

When I look back, I feel that I was a bit maniacal.

How so?

Like, in the run-up to the O-levels, I would set aside every afternoon to do maths papers and additional maths papers because I found them to be quite difficult.

So I would time myself to make sure I could finish within the time allotted.

I did it very religiously, and in the end, when the exams came, I found that they were not too difficult because I had been drilling myself to do it.

But St. Joseph’s (SJC) wasn’t known for its academic achievements right?

Thanks. (grin sarcastically)

It’s not true. There were one or two President’s Scholars from there.

But you know, people have this stereotype about convent girls – havoc, always partying.

There’s a range, you know. But of course, in convent school, we also enjoyed that all-girl environment.

We could have the freedom to be all-rounded and not bother about boys.

But you’ll notice that with a lot of the Catholic girl schools, there’ll be a boys’ school nearby. It’s like CHIJ and SJI, Katong Convent and St. Patrick’s.

National Service lah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that kind of thing.

You’ll see people meeting at the bus stop.

So yours would be St. Gabriel’s?

That’s right.

And Montfort?

Montfort was a bit further away. But yes.

Ever dated a St. Gabriel’s guy?

Briefly.

Tell me about ECA.

I was in NCC and athletics.

I also took up air rifle. I can’t remember but I think I did more of that in NJC (National Junior College).

Why NJC?

I was a serious student and I wanted to do better.

In fact, I was in Hwa Chong for the first three months. I left because the culture didn’t sit well with me.

You were that smart?

I could get in but there were so many others there who were academically much smarter.

The prevailing Hwa Chong culture worked well for many students but not for me.

In NJC, I enjoyed the diversity and we would have different classmates for Chinese language, for PE (Physical Education), for our core subjects etc. So you got to meet lots and lots of people.

You were in the police force and also taught at Temasek Polytechnic. Wouldn’t it be easier to just stay a civil servant?

Yes and no.

I actually have a great interest in police work but I think the issue of me being independent-minded would have come up sooner or later.

I think when you’re in that kind of set-up, in any civil service department actually, you are a public servant, but in the end you’ll find that you’re also a government servant.

So there are restrictions. And you have to implement or go along with whatever has been decided by the policy-makers.

Which you don’t necessarily agree with.

Yeah, so at some point in time things would have come to a head and it would be inevitable that I would leave the police force.

I still have very good friends from the police and we meet up now and then. There’s this bond that never goes away for people who have been in uniform together.

Temasek Polytechnic was a slightly different case because it’s a statutory board, so one has more freedom. I was able to run for election on a WP ticket even though I was still an employee.

They changed the policy.

I would say that they brought their policy in line with other polytechnics. This was in 2006 when I ran in my first General Election and became a Non-Constituency MP. I could continue as an employee and did not need to resign.

In 2011 when I was elected as an MP for Aljunied GRC, I resigned of my own accord. It would have been very difficult to continue as an employee and at the same time be an opposition MP with a constituency to manage.

Were you a good teacher?

I would say that I grew into the role, and yeah, I would say not bad.

How would your students describe you?

I taught both full-time students, meaning O-level school leavers, as well as mature adults in the workforce who attended night classes.

It was easier to get along with the older ones. I could identify with them because we also shared working experiences, and we were mature enough to see the big picture.

For the younger students, I would say that being an older person, it was a bit of a stretch.

When I first joined the poly, I was of course not so old, but I think for me now to teach school leavers, it would be quite difficult for some of them to identify with me.

And for a short period of time you were working with your father at Lim & Lim?

Yes, between 1994 and 1998.

By that time he had already become a consultant, so the firm was being run by others, but it was the firm that he set up earlier with his partner.

But the second Lim in Lim & Lim is you?

No, no, no. A lot of people think that, but apparently the Lim (another lawyer who is also a Lim) was somebody else who was supposed to join him, but in the end couldn’t do so. But they kept the name.

Dad passed away in 2017.

Your current arrangement with Peter Low Chambers is not a full-time thing?

No. I do ad hoc work so my time is very much my own.

Apart from your dad, did you have other role models growing up?

I wouldn’t say that but there were events and milestones that affected my thinking.

When I was in law school learning about constitutional law, we studied for example, the Internal Security Act and how people were detained, how the courts interacted with all this, and the role of the ministers. That got me thinking a lot about our system.

You touched on that a little bit earlier, that your volunteer work is about helping the underclass, the people who can’t speak for themselves. So there’s a strong sense of social justice and empathy.

I would say it is the big guiding principle in the things that I’m doing.

Did the PAP ever approach you? Would you have considered?

No they never did, and I would not have considered.

I feel that I should go where the need is. And the reason I joined the Workers’ Party in 2001 was that we had a very one-sided general election in 2001. It was shortly after the 9-11 attacks in the US. There was a snap election.

The boundaries were redrawn, and the election was called barely two weeks after.

Of course, the smaller parties didn’t have time to prepare, and two-thirds of the seats were not contested. I was really very upset about this, and I thought to myself that if I cared about democracy and I wanted elections to mean something, then I’ve got to do something.

I wrote to Mr Low Thia Khiang, who was the Secretary-General of the WP at the time, to say, “OK, I want to join the party.”

I wrote to him almost immediately after the election.

So you were not recruited by anybody from the party?

No, no, I wasn’t.

Why WP? Why not the other parties?

Because one of the main slogans of the WP since the 1970s was ‘Towards a caring society’. That means something to me. It means that the poor and the underprivileged will always have a special place in WP’s agenda.

That resonates with me for the reasons that we discussed earlier.

And the second thing is that, although I had never met Mr Low, I felt that I could work with him. Because I think he has that honesty, leadership and also some discretion as to how opposition politics should be conducted.

So I just took that leap of faith. I didn’t want to forget about the anger that I felt about the 2001 elections.

Because you know how you sometimes feel very passionate about something, but then as time goes by, you kind of forget it. So I didn’t want that to happen.

Are you always a good judge of people?

In this case, I’ve not been proven wrong.

So he’s your political mentor?

I would say that, yeah.

Are you still close to him?

We still talk. But of course less so now.

He has stepped down from being an MP and Pritam is our party leader now. So I would say my interactions with Mr Low have greatly reduced.

You went into politics with your eyes open, I assume. What were you not prepared for?

One can never really fully prepare, you know.

Because conceptually, you know that, OK, in Singapore, being an opposition politician is not going to be smooth sailing.

In fact, it’s going to be tough at times.

But I told myself ‘OK, this is not going to deter me from doing what I feel has to be done because if I don’t do it, the feeling of remorse will be worse.’

What keeps you going?

I think an intrinsic motivation and conviction that what we are doing is important.

And I think I’m also encouraged by the election results, in the sense that WP has managed to maintain its parliamentary presence, which means that Singaporeans support what we’re doing. So it’s a great encouragement to us.

Not that we live for external validation, but in politics, having people support you is important. I mean, you need the support to continue, right?

Was your family supportive?

Well, I have said this before. “When I told my father “Dad, I’ve decided to join the Workers’ Party”, he said, “Congratulations, you’re one step closer to prison”.”

So that’s him.

And then my mother. Of course, being a nurse, she was very calm because she had seen emergencies, life and death. So she didn’t say too much, but I know that she was praying for me.

But I think over the years, they have grown into it.

My father was one of our counting agents in my first election in 2006.

Like all parents, in the end, they will come around and they will try to support you in whatever way they can.

Did any potential suitors chicken out because you are a WP MP?

If they did, I wouldn’t consider them to be serious.

If they run away, then they are not worth your time.

Yeah, right.

So I don’t think it’s any loss to me.

Being one of the few women MPs, have you felt pressured to speak up more on women issues?

People have asked me about this before.

There are of course issues that women understand better.

Men should realise that if these so-called women’s issues don’t get addressed, then they will also suffer, and their families will suffer.

I have tried to avoid being stereotyped because I’m the party chair. I cannot just speak on one set of issues.

But in the recent general election, my fifth one, I decided to talk about women and women candidates in one of the rally speeches. To my satisfaction, many women said they found it so refreshing that somebody in an election rally would focus on women and women’s issues, which are not so much talked about in the male-dominated political arena.

I was also very happy that we had some new female candidates who held their own very well. I’m very proud of them and I was also very privileged to be able to speak for them at that rally. It was something very special to me, and somehow the label “mama bear” has stuck. I’m happy to be in that role!

So you are the mama bear to the younger candidates?

Yes, and particularly to the women.

Not sister, but mama?

Mama, yeah, because I’m quite a lot older than some of them. In fact maybe 20 over years older.

You talk about grooming new candidates. Are you involved in all selections?

Yes.

And what’s the first thing that you look at? Not the resume, right?

The resume is only one part of it, because we would hope that we would have known the person for some time. We make exceptions for people who come in at the last minute only if there are factors that make them special.

Apart from that, the party would have known most of the candidates for months or even years.

So there’s already some assessment of the way they work, whether we think that they have the right motivations.

But all this is not infallible. Sometimes, people change once they’re placed in a certain position.

So we just do our best.

We also try to use certain established tools to learn more about their styles.

How do you find time to be a politician, a party leader, a practising lawyer and then to get married?

I’ve reduced my legal work to quite a small part of my life.

A lot of my time is spent on my political work, my constituency work, parliament work.

But I’ve always made sure that I have enough time for myself because I know that if I’m burnt out, or if I’m miserable or demoralized, I can’t function and I can’t run the distance.

So to me, sleep is very important.

And also enjoyment is very important.

So in the week, I will make sure that I have fun.

I always make time to exercise, maybe three or four times a week. And I also find time to have, like, say, one night or two nights off to go out and do my own thing.

So to that extent, you know, having time to meet someone, I would say I have been lucky.

You talk about making time to have fun. What’s a typical fun night?

Meeting friends or going out with my husband. We tend to enjoy our own company. Or spending time with family.

I would say ‘live music’ is quite a big part of our lives.

We make our own music. And we also have friends who are musicians.

We respect musicians greatly. And we try to support them in whatever way.

Tell me one great thing about Kim Song.

I think that he wears his heart on his sleeve.

Transparent.

Yeah.

So in that sense, I feel very fortunate that I’ve met him. And we met each other also at the right time.

Having been married before, he is quite used to being in a committed relationship. His wife passed away 17 years ago.

He has no problem waiting for me to finish doing this or that, though he will grumble a bit that my time indications can be a little elastic.

What is your relationship with his children like?

Kim Song has a son and a daughter.

They’re both in their 40s now, and they have their own children.

I feel that the fact that we spent 12 years together before we decided to get married is very important.

I’m not there to replace their mother, because she can never be replaced.

I value the time that we spent, more than a decade, getting to know one another.

So over the years, I think, there’s a mutual trust being built up, that they know that I’m not out to take advantage of their father.

We love to get together for meals and drinks, including with the grandkids, their age range now is from Sec 1 to K1.

How will your close friends describe you?

I think my friends would say that I am a high achiever, meaning I push myself to achieve things. And if I’m committed to something, I will put my heart and soul into it.

But as a friend?

I don’t think they think that I’ve changed from our school days. I still have a group of primary and secondary school friends that I meet up with maybe every two, three months. Fundamentally, I think we’re all still the same.

It’s just that, of course, our lives have moved to a different stage. But there’s still that comfort to just be yourself. In that sense, the friendships are still there.

How has politics in Singapore changed? I like to think that it’s more okay to be in the opposition now.

I think that you’re right. And it is interesting to try to pinpoint the reasons.

So during our time, if I were to look around, how many people in the opposition parties are from our cohort? Not so many.

Whereas if you look at the younger people now, they seem more willing to come forward.

But of course, the reality check here is that WP has only 10 seats out of 97. It’s a small presence in Parliament.

But I think that the younger people probably feel that Singapore needs to move to a more mature democracy.

So I think the ruling party is also evolving with the times and the electorate will set their demands.

So in the end, more openness, more freedom to participate in society, not necessarily under the ruling party umbrella. I think that will become more commonplace.

The WP has repeatedly said that it’s not ready to govern. Will that change in the next two elections?

It’s hard to put a time frame on it.

But I’ve said the reality check is that we currently only have 10 out of 97 elected seats. So it’s still a high mountain to climb.

For those who hope that we can do more, I hope that they would step forward.

It’s not just at the candidate level, but at the level of supporting the party work and other things.

It could be background research, it could be ground activities. We still need many more hands on deck.

We’ve been quite careful not to do things too quickly. Which I think is good because sometimes big bangs don’t last.

So we try to grow incrementally. So far, I think it has worked. And if the pace were to quicken, we would need more hands on deck.

We cannot say that we’re ready to govern. I think that would really be overstating our capacity now.

But by winning more seats, it’s a start to building momentum.

What keeps you awake? What do you worry about?

I would say at different phases of my life, it could be different. But now, nothing keeps me awake.

But in those days when I was having, for example, difficulties in the courts, I would wonder, “Did I handle this thing correctly?”

But it comes and goes. And now I think, touch wood, I feel quite comfortable with what I’m doing.

I feel happy to have come to this stage where we are now senior citizens. And recognised as such.

I’m looking forward to the next phase of my life.

So, we won’t talk about retirement?

Hard to talk about it, because these things are always very fluid, right?

And of course, it will depend on whether we have new leaders to take over all these roles. And I think we have come to a good place now.

So, MOT, matter of time.

Comparing your own life journey to that of Singapore, what are some similarities?

Singapore, in the early days, we were finding our way. And now, after 60 years of so-called independence, there are new challenges.

So, broadly speaking, I find that it is similar to us as well.

And I’m sort of learning all the time about the new things that we have to grapple with. Like, for example, digitalisation.

I would say we can still cope. Things like SingPass, we can transact, we can help older people do it and all that. But there will come a time when it’s going to be hard. And we would need someone else to help us.

It’s scary, you know, in that way. I don’t know what young people are talking about.

So, there was one speech I made in Parliament some time back about words like OOTD.

Do you know what it means? Outfit of the Day.

Oh my god.

Or IYKYK.

I looked around and I could see that in Parliament, there were looks of bewilderment among MPs and Ministers and a nervous laughter.

IYKYK means ‘If you know, you know’.

I’ve just learned FOMO. Fear of missing out.

Oh, yeah. But YOLO, we know, you only live once.

So, we’re learning to live with all the abbreviations.

What kind of Singaporean are you?

I would like to think that I’m patriotic, which leads me to do what I’m doing.

Some people have told me that they are uncomfortable talking about patriotism. They say it’s not a concept that we can grapple with.

People have different ways of looking at things, right? And I think that one of the conversations that we need to have more of is that you can be patriotic and be critical of the government.

I think it’s important to draw that line.

Sometimes we criticise because we are loyal to the country and we want the country to do better.

Do you attach any significance to the fact that you were born in 1965?

I always feel that we are a bridge between the old and the new.

But it will always be that case with every generation?

Currently, we are still the bridge but we will soon be pushed to the side and somebody else will be the bridge.

Now we are helping our parents. Or my aunties and uncles, who are grappling with certain issues. I have to help them to transact with the government because this digital thing is just too much for them.

And then with the younger generation, they give their seats up to us on the MRT.

The relentless passage of time.